CHAPTER FOURTEEN (D)
Topic 1: Predestination versus free will.
Topic 2: Eternal security versus eternal insecurity.
Start with 1.
Can I take a pass on this?
J. Vernon did. He mentions in his commentary how he could explain how free will and predestination could exist together when he was in his first semester at seminary but when he got older he no longer could, I suspect Mr. McGee had a shot of wry before he wrote that.
Michael Card didn't confront the issue, choosing to focus on the personal conflicts.
The Fourfold Gospel kind of confronts the P V. F epic:
All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me. These words of Christ arise naturally out of the situation. The Jews, having wavered between belief and disbelief, had settled in a proud disbelief which was about to be expressed in murmuring and scorn. They were complacently self-satisfied, and felt that they had displayed great wisdom in arriving at this decision. But Jesus strikes at their pride by informing them that they are not his because God has rejected them as unworthy to be given to him. There is no suggestion or hint that the Father acts arbitrarily in selecting whom he shall give to Christ. The Son of God followed a prescribed course in the winning of men. If this did not win them, it was the Father's decree that they were not his.
And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. If this course did win them, Jesus in nowise rejected them, no matter how lowly their station, or how vile their past record.
(TFG 386)
Okay, actually chooses sides.
"If this did not win them, it was the Father's decree that they were not his."
And I disagree.
We are confronted with what seems to be a contradiction to that quote when we hear also: "It is not the Father's will that any should be lost."
And when we read that Jesus died for all our sins on the cross.
What seems to be the case is that God doesn't destroy the unbeliever before he comes into being.
We know He sees us in the womb: "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated." Some of that phrase had to do with the creation of the Hebrew nation and the arrival of Jesus through the Davidic and hence, Jacobian line. It had also to do with the eventual conflict of Esau's line with Israel. But more lies there.
Modern physics seems to have found out that a being who can travel in quantum reality can be virtually everywhere at once and could see ALL of us at once, who we will become and the choices we make. Thus confirming the possibility of God's omniscience.
I believe John's verses speak more to His omniscience than to his destining humanity.
An omniscient God can see every one of us and know who we will CHOOSE to follow, Him or some form of Satanic line. But God, the one true God, doesn't want followers who go through a ritual of deception and come out completely subverted to His cause. He offers The Word in the Gospels and the rest of the Bible and offers His undeceived followers the chance to spread The Word. Every one who has listened to the father and learns from him, comes to me. Knowing some will not listen though His Holy Spirit prods EVERYONE to accept. Knowing full well some will not. Knowing those who do will be jewels on the crown of the one or ones who have witnessed and be laid at the feet of Christ one day. Knowing the ones He saw would not choose will be lost but by their own choice.
Can you begin to imagine the grief God feels at this moment for all who do not accept when He wishes them to? It is not that He created them to not choose and withheld his voice. It is that, out of love, He gave them the opportunity to choose DESPITE knowing they would not. Knowing they would birth some who did, as with my human father. Knowing they would be blessings to others in ways his Spirit empowered.
Jesus created the race knowing it would fall to sin, knowing that the only love that would ever matter was love given freely. Perhaps, as some say, to explain to the loyal angels how God could have given Satan and his followers a chance to even exist. Perhaps merely to expand his love to other beings.
If Jesus took all our sins, it explains a resurrection of the entire race. Some to take the humbling blessing of being with the three fold God forever, some to NOT take the blessing and suffer the consequences of that choice.
Predestination involves the preordaining by God of salvation for some and not others. And of all things. I fully believe my explanation of the passage explains it better in the light of God's personality, at least as I understand it. I suggest that this belief from Augustine of Hippo and Calvin, most commonly, owes its origin more from their knowledge of Earthly kings and the overlaying of that pattern on the Heavenly King. The human king holding sway over life and death, a decision sometimes based on the whim of that king as much as the crime of the subject, would have influenced the idea of God ordaining an outcome rather than allowing ones that he didn't want for everyone. Under predestination, God would take all responsibility for all human actions. making him not the judge but the operator of billions of avatars.
I also fully believe my own heritage of liberty and taking responsibility for my own errors colors MY interpretation. But then, that is what God gave me to make that interpretation. I guess you could say...it's my destiny. (Yes, I went there.)
Note, I am not saying God isn't sovereign. I am saying he expresses it by ALLOWING our freedom of choice, hence "giving" us to Christ.
But another point should be made. The ideas are sometimes related to Calvinism and St, Augustine. I quote from a lot of different sources and they might not agree with what I believe as I've brought up here before. It isn't really a talking point except for me to say: Doesn't it sound like we don't pay attention to Paul's exhortation about "I am of Apollos. I am of Paul." (I Cor 1:12);
1Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cor 3:5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Answer:When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security.Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.
The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?
Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief.John 3:15-16tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
An even more relevant text appears in doctrine/landmarkbiblebaptist.net
John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
18. The believer to be kept from the evil.
John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
Jesus prays that the believer may be kept from the Devil. Was this prayer answered?
19. The believer to be with Christ in glory.
John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
20. The believer shall never hunger.
John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
21. The believer will in no wise be cast out (Not under any circumstance).
John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
22. Christ will not lose a single believer.
John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
23. Christ will raise up the believer at the last day.
John 6:38-40: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
24. Whosoever eats the bread of life shall never die.
John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
25. Because the Holy Spirit abides in the believer forever.
John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
26. Because it is the Father’s will that Christ should lose nothing.
John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
27. Because one cannot be unborn.
John 3:5: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into thekingdom of God
28. The believer will follow Christ.
John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” Following Christ, can one be lost? Have we any right to add to God’s Word by inserting if” to the passage?
(I Know. I better hurry up before I run out of letters.)
John 6:37 "Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will never reject.
38 "For I am come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should not lose one of all those whom he has given me, but should raise them up at the last day.
40 "For this is my Fathers will, that every one who beholds the Son and believes on him, shall have eternal life. and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 Then the Jews began to find fault with Jesus, because he said, "I am the bread which comes down out of heaven," and they kept asking:
42 "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? How is it that he now says, `I have come down from heaven'?"
43 "Do not find fault with me among yourselves,"
44 answered Jesus; "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him; then I will raise him up on the last day.
45 "It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all of them be taught of God. Every one who has listened to the father and learns from him, comes to me.
46 "Not that any one has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.
47 "I tell you solemnly that he who believes has eternal life.
48 "I am the bread of life.
49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; yet they died.
50 "This is the bread that comes down from heaven, that one may eat thereof and never die.
51 "I myself am the living bread that has come down from heaven. Any one who eats this bread will live forever; and moreover, the bread which I will give is my flesh, given for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to dispute among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 "I tell you solemnly," said Jesus, "that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 "He who feeds upon my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 "For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 "He who feeds upon my flesh abides in me and I in him.
57 "Just as the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father, so also that man who feeds on me shall live by me.
58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven; not such as your fathers ate and died, for he who feeds upon this bread shall live forever."
59 He spoke these words while in the synagogue, while he was teaching in Capernaum.
60 So many of his disciples, when they heard it, said: "This teaching is unbelievable! Who can listen to him?"
61 Jesus, conscious within himself that his disciples were finding fault with him about his teaching, said to them:
62 "Does this displease you? What then if you were to behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
63 "The spirit is what gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words which I have been speaking to you, are spirit and are life.
64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who should betray him.
65 So he added, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be given from the Father."
66 Therefore many of his disciples drew back and no longer companied with him.
67 So Jesus appealed to the Twelve: "You also do not wish to leave me, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered: "To whom shall we go Master? You have words of eternal life;
69 "and we have learned to believe and we know that you are the holy one of God."
70 In reply Jesus said to them: "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And yet even of you one is an enemy."
71 Now Jesus was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot; for Judas was to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.
(MNT)
Topic 2: Eternal security versus eternal insecurity.
Start with 1.
Can I take a pass on this?
J. Vernon did. He mentions in his commentary how he could explain how free will and predestination could exist together when he was in his first semester at seminary but when he got older he no longer could, I suspect Mr. McGee had a shot of wry before he wrote that.
Michael Card didn't confront the issue, choosing to focus on the personal conflicts.
The Fourfold Gospel kind of confronts the P V. F epic:
All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me. These words of Christ arise naturally out of the situation. The Jews, having wavered between belief and disbelief, had settled in a proud disbelief which was about to be expressed in murmuring and scorn. They were complacently self-satisfied, and felt that they had displayed great wisdom in arriving at this decision. But Jesus strikes at their pride by informing them that they are not his because God has rejected them as unworthy to be given to him. There is no suggestion or hint that the Father acts arbitrarily in selecting whom he shall give to Christ. The Son of God followed a prescribed course in the winning of men. If this did not win them, it was the Father's decree that they were not his.
And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. If this course did win them, Jesus in nowise rejected them, no matter how lowly their station, or how vile their past record.
(TFG 386)
Okay, actually chooses sides.
"If this did not win them, it was the Father's decree that they were not his."
And I disagree.
We are confronted with what seems to be a contradiction to that quote when we hear also: "It is not the Father's will that any should be lost."
And when we read that Jesus died for all our sins on the cross.
What seems to be the case is that God doesn't destroy the unbeliever before he comes into being.
We know He sees us in the womb: "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated." Some of that phrase had to do with the creation of the Hebrew nation and the arrival of Jesus through the Davidic and hence, Jacobian line. It had also to do with the eventual conflict of Esau's line with Israel. But more lies there.
Modern physics seems to have found out that a being who can travel in quantum reality can be virtually everywhere at once and could see ALL of us at once, who we will become and the choices we make. Thus confirming the possibility of God's omniscience.
I believe John's verses speak more to His omniscience than to his destining humanity.
An omniscient God can see every one of us and know who we will CHOOSE to follow, Him or some form of Satanic line. But God, the one true God, doesn't want followers who go through a ritual of deception and come out completely subverted to His cause. He offers The Word in the Gospels and the rest of the Bible and offers His undeceived followers the chance to spread The Word. Every one who has listened to the father and learns from him, comes to me. Knowing some will not listen though His Holy Spirit prods EVERYONE to accept. Knowing full well some will not. Knowing those who do will be jewels on the crown of the one or ones who have witnessed and be laid at the feet of Christ one day. Knowing the ones He saw would not choose will be lost but by their own choice.
Can you begin to imagine the grief God feels at this moment for all who do not accept when He wishes them to? It is not that He created them to not choose and withheld his voice. It is that, out of love, He gave them the opportunity to choose DESPITE knowing they would not. Knowing they would birth some who did, as with my human father. Knowing they would be blessings to others in ways his Spirit empowered.
Jesus created the race knowing it would fall to sin, knowing that the only love that would ever matter was love given freely. Perhaps, as some say, to explain to the loyal angels how God could have given Satan and his followers a chance to even exist. Perhaps merely to expand his love to other beings.
If Jesus took all our sins, it explains a resurrection of the entire race. Some to take the humbling blessing of being with the three fold God forever, some to NOT take the blessing and suffer the consequences of that choice.
Predestination involves the preordaining by God of salvation for some and not others. And of all things. I fully believe my explanation of the passage explains it better in the light of God's personality, at least as I understand it. I suggest that this belief from Augustine of Hippo and Calvin, most commonly, owes its origin more from their knowledge of Earthly kings and the overlaying of that pattern on the Heavenly King. The human king holding sway over life and death, a decision sometimes based on the whim of that king as much as the crime of the subject, would have influenced the idea of God ordaining an outcome rather than allowing ones that he didn't want for everyone. Under predestination, God would take all responsibility for all human actions. making him not the judge but the operator of billions of avatars.
I also fully believe my own heritage of liberty and taking responsibility for my own errors colors MY interpretation. But then, that is what God gave me to make that interpretation. I guess you could say...it's my destiny. (Yes, I went there.)
Note, I am not saying God isn't sovereign. I am saying he expresses it by ALLOWING our freedom of choice, hence "giving" us to Christ.
But another point should be made. The ideas are sometimes related to Calvinism and St, Augustine. I quote from a lot of different sources and they might not agree with what I believe as I've brought up here before. It isn't really a talking point except for me to say: Doesn't it sound like we don't pay attention to Paul's exhortation about "I am of Apollos. I am of Paul." (I Cor 1:12);
1Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cor 3:5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Paul argues through those first three chapters and I won't record it all. The gist is in these quotes. Calvin and I are servants, allbeit Calvin a vastly more committed one than I, of God. If you believe my ideas or his, please always recall they may vary merely because human filters are frail and carry their own perspective. No Willism will rise from this, but please focus on the God we all worship when you consider the ideas, Who is he to you and how do you think that effects how he would act? Together we merge into a Christ-ism. We see the whole only in the pieces we can grasp through that glass darkly. I feel mine is a clearer vision, but there is surely clouding I miss.
Now, concerning the question of eternal security, from GotQuestions?org;
Question: "Eternal security - is it biblical?"
Answer:When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security.Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.
The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?
Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief.John 3:15-16tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
An even more relevant text appears in doctrine/landmarkbiblebaptist.net
101 BIBLE REASONS PROVING
ETERNAL SECURITY
ETERNAL SECURITY
1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.
John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
2. The believer is born of God.
John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.
John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”
4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.
John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.
John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
6. Believer are God’s sheep.
John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, andleadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”
7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.
John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)
8. The believer is known of God.
John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.
John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.
John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.
John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
13. The believer is not condemned.
John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
14. The believer shall never thirst.
John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.
John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.
John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
17. The believer shall never die.
John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
2. The believer is born of God.
John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.
John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”
4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.
John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.
John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
6. Believer are God’s sheep.
John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, andleadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”
7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.
John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)
8. The believer is known of God.
John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.
John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.
John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.
John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.
John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
13. The believer is not condemned.
John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
14. The believer shall never thirst.
John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.
John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.
John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
17. The believer shall never die.
John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
18. The believer to be kept from the evil.
John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
Jesus prays that the believer may be kept from the Devil. Was this prayer answered?
19. The believer to be with Christ in glory.
John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
20. The believer shall never hunger.
John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
21. The believer will in no wise be cast out (Not under any circumstance).
John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
22. Christ will not lose a single believer.
John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
23. Christ will raise up the believer at the last day.
John 6:38-40: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
24. Whosoever eats the bread of life shall never die.
John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
25. Because the Holy Spirit abides in the believer forever.
John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
26. Because it is the Father’s will that Christ should lose nothing.
John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
27. Because one cannot be unborn.
John 3:5: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
28. The believer will follow Christ.
John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” Following Christ, can one be lost? Have we any right to add to God’s Word by inserting if” to the passage?
I include only the first 28 since they ALL COME FROM JOHN. In any writing concerning ES, John gets quoted.
I was brought up in a rural church where some believed in ES and some in EI. The church was a conglomeration of farm families in the "neighborhood" and when it was founded, people there didn't drive for hours to meet and worship. So predestination and eternal security were taboos. ANYTHING that might cause a problem was pushed aside. But pretending the differences don't exist is a bit like ignoring the elephant sitting on the patio sipping tea with its trunk.
And, in the interest of discussion: Satan and his fellow angels were IN heaven and they fell.
Now to mention the arguments against ES (From www.bible/ca):1 Parable of sower
- Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
2 Fallen from grace passage:
- Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
3 Pruning passages:
- John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
- Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."
4 Hebrews Passages:
- Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
- Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
- Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."
5 Doctrinal Apostasy passages:
- Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
- 1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"
- 2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
- 1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
- 2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
- 2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"
- 2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."
6 Moral Apostasy passages:
- 1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
- 2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""
- James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."
7 Revelation passages:
- Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
- Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
- Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"
8 Old Testament passages
- Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Now I find myself in the company of Chuck Smith who ended up not coming down on either side of the argument suggesting that both were somehow true.
In my heart, I believe in eternal security though I can hear those who say "Once saved, always saved" invites us to test God, trusting we belong to him, citing the life of Elvis. But I also can hear those decrying that the eternally insecure are no better off than Islamic believers praying on cue, worried that they are 51% saved. fearful they may die without telling God of their last sins.
I find myself on the ES side. It seems more within God's personality. I can't see him playing, " Now you're saved, now you're not," like some petty child, some brute on a playground. I suspect, too, that the empowering of the Spirit serves to enforce the knowing of being eternally secure.
Pastor Smith suggested we should aim to please God and therefore always be secure.
Of all the ideologies I've ever read, that makes the most sense.
And. after this fun fair, we conclude our discussion of Six next week.
Now
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